Modding in 2017 | $, Perms, Piracy, and more

[sil]

I've been modding since the days of the Warcraft 3 release, it's my hobby and typically I just do it for myself and a few friends, but I've released model edits for Warcraft 3 before and also my Respawn mod here. I think the idea of paid mods is utterly horrendous and goes against the core values of modding; editing a game for fun, for experience, to edit something you feel needs editing, and to work alongside other like minded hobbyists. As that is what this is, a hobby, not a job.

Having so much expensive DLC for games already feels like a tax, especially when a game doesn't feel complete without the DLC, but if modding became something I had to pay for I'd turn away from it utterly. I'd remove my mods if those who wanted to use them had to pay for the privilege, I'd rather they didn't get to use it than receive money from them. I'd be forced to stop getting them myself, as I'm unemployed and even when I was employed I never earned much. I don't often get principled about things, I try to just chill out, but paid mods are something I utterly loathe and stand against. It'd turn one of the best aspects of PC gaming into a business, and that's a very slippery slope.

I'm sure people will disagree, we all have our opinions and that's mine. No-one could convince me paid modding is a good idea, ever. Donations are fine, as that's entirely voluntary.

And on the permissions thing, I think that's a good old list you have there. Personally I've always been fine with anyone using anything I made however they want in other mods, just as long as they say thanks in their mod description. Back in the WC3 modding era, there was a terrible case of egotism from the experienced modders hoarding their discoveries, models and textures but showing them off and basically making other people feel like morons for not being so grandly talented as them. The community couldn't work together to do anything, except in a rare few cases. Though I met some lovely people when I had a modding team then, there were a lot of arseholes, so I've always released all my content because someone could put it to good use. I'd rather someone used it, even if it was heavily edited, than to never see it used.

Apologies if I was a little stroppy in how I wrote about paid mods. I'm just very against it

[mgamerz]

I'm of the opinion that under no circumstance can you charge /for access to a mod/. It's the whole reason I got in a big huff n puff with warranty voider when he accused me of charging for a friendly fire mod I developed and never released.

Now, donations are fine, especially for hosting cause that stuff is not cheap. I've spent easily over $250 on ME3Tweaks (not counting my thousands of hours of website work on it). Unless you're generating tons of new stuff from scratch I don't see how one could be justified in charging for stuff. If you want to charge for content get into the business, don't just modify other people's stuff.

[ottemis]

I wouldn't feel slightly insulted right now if I was just up-scaling and running filters over my textures, but I create HR retextures. That's a whole different pancake. I don't think many people realize what that means, exactly.
Now I certainly can't claim I create these textures entirely from scratch but depending on the retexture in question, little of the original texture is left, bar following the original wrap. Some parts are also hand painted. So yeah, I think you can't be as black and white about these things as some of you come across here.

Aside from that, whatever kind of mod you create, how and if you share them is entirely up to you. If you personally don't want to pay for mods, or think any particular mod behind a paywall isn't worth the money, then you don't buy it. You're not automatically entitled to the fruits of someone elses labour. I don't see why we can't stay respectful of people that don't share your opinion on these things.

Maybe my outlook is a bit different from others because I've always wanted to work in this field, it's been my dream for many years. I went to school for it but had to drop out due to unfortunate circumstances I had little control over. I busted my ass teaching myself how to do this, how to get good at it, and I'm established enough and proud enough of my work now to consider they would potentially be worth something. I worked hard to get where I am. I also spent an unhealthy amount of time on community support, on sharing what I know and helping where i could, on creating guides, on collaborations with other modders. I feel I've earned my keep. I feel I've earned the right to consider if a viable circumstance should arise, to create and release certain things behind a paywall, without being condemned for it on principle.

[kinkojiro]

For my 2c - I think anybody who wants to create a mod and sell it as a service to users should be able to.   Nobody is forcing players to use the mod, and nobody is forcing the modder to create it.  If a modder is encouraged to create and sell a mod because they can charge for it, and enough users want to pay the price to use it that is fantastic.  Both parties are better off.   To me the idea that modders have to give their creations away for free, on principle, is completely false.

The problem is primarily about establishing a marketplace that (1) ensures users get decent information about the mod and whether it works, doesn't crash the game etc, before they purchase it. (2) it is about ensuring the modder has the intellectual property and is able to enforce it so people don't rip them off and users can't just pirate it.   (3) it is about ensuring a safe and secure transaction system.

A platform like nexus can provide points (1) and (3).  Fairly easily via (1) reputation system and (3) a third party payment system.    The problem is always ensuring (2).

Ultimately we are all building our mods off the IP of EA Bioware.   If there ever was such a marketplace it could never legally enforce and control the modders rights without EA being involved.

The next question is therefore if EA could create a marketplace - why doesn't it?   The answer is likely it is just not worth the hassle.  It would be difficult to control and resource and only provide them with a limited return.   The problems Bethesda has had with Skyrim SE console mods shows how difficult it is.  They just don't want to spend their time deciding whether this texture has been copied from this mod to another one or create a system that prevents piracy.

As somebody who has poured a lot of work into a successful mod I would like to be able to sell it, but the reality is the market just doesn't exist, nor is likely to.  

[ottemis]

Thank you for that Kinko, I am happy to not feel as alone in this. We can stand in pariahs corner together 🙃 And I agree chance are slim, but as you also point out, they are two separate things. The question whether you'd want to or consider it ok, and the question whether it would ever be implemented in a fashion you viably could.

[creeperlava]

@kinko and Ottemis, I can understand why you would like to be compensated for the time you spend in modding, even if I don't agree with the principle of paid modding. What about the price of mods then ? How would you determine that ?

If paid modding became a thing, how much would we as users have to pay to get a modded game similar to the one we have today ? What price would be acceptable ? If you take Skyrim as an example, where heavily modded games can have hundreds of mods installed, even if each modder only charged 0.50€ on their mod, it could quickly climb to large sums. Not all modders would sell their mods, but the point remains.

ottemis Out of curiosity, since you mentioned it, do you work as a texture artist professionally ? Are entirely as a self taught hobby ?

I wouldn't feel slightly insulted right now if I was just up-scaling and running filters over my textures, but I create HR retextures. That's a whole different pancake. I don't think many people realize what that means, exactly.

While I certainly can't pretend to have your level of skill and experience, I am well aware of the time it takes to create real HR textures. The most difficult I made yet took me an afternoon (Aria's diff texture). Still, I keep my initial opinion. Modding, or making textures in this case, shouldn't involve money as payment.

[kinkojiro]

creeperlava - My point is largely about principle - if somebody wants to charge for their work they should be able.

If in some theoretical fantasy world it could ever happen, modders would charge what the market would bear, just like any other market. Given a DLC weapons pack retails for $3 lets say $1-2 would be the high end for many mods. However if EA was part of it they would take a decent cut - lets say 50%. That would mean the modder gets <$1 per user. You say it would quickly mount up but even MEHEM only has 35k unique downloads. Even being generous let's say that 25% of those users would pay, it is only $4000-8000 and that is for the No 1 mod by far for ME3.

And this kind of gets to the point - EA would only make $4000-8000 itself. That barely pays for an EA lawyer to get out of bed, let alone draft all the necessary documents just to start something, police it, program a toolkit etc.

[creeperlava]

What I meant by quickly climb was the price the user would pay, not what the modder would receive . If I were to pay just 0.50€ for each mod I used, in all games I played, it could be hundreds of € worth...

[giftfish]

Yeah, mod prices are not determined by the modder, they are determined by the game house.

When Steam Workshop launched for Skyrim, there were many mod authors that simply weren't willing to take the cut that Bethesda and Valve were offering, which was a paltry 25%. Pretty insulting, imo.

[giftfish]

Jan 11, 2017 6:41:33 GMT kinkojiro said:

The next question is therefore if EA could create a marketplace - why doesn't it?   The answer is likely it is just not worth the hassle.  It would be difficult to control and resource and only provide them with a limited return.   The problems Bethesda has had with Skyrim SE console mods shows how difficult it is.  They just don't want to spend their time deciding whether this texture has been copied from this mod to another one or create a system that prevents piracy.

I expect that if they did -- and apparently they haven't ruled out releasing a creation kit for Frostbite -- that they might very well restrict the types of mods they would accept from authors for resale. They might restrict it to things like HR textures, new weapons, new armor, etc. It's possible they'd not accept mods that alter existing story content. Who knows.

Jan 11, 2017 14:24:57 GMT kinkojiro said:

If in some theoretical fantasy world it could ever happen, modders would charge what the market would bear, just like any other market. Given a DLC weapons pack retails for $3 lets say $1-2 would be the high end for many mods. However if EA was part of it they would take a decent cut - lets say 50%. That would mean the modder gets <$1 per user. You say it would quickly mount up but even MEHEM only has 35k unique downloads. Even being generous let's say that 25% of those users would pay, it is only $4000-8000 and that is for the No 1 mod by far for ME3.

And this kind of gets to the point - EA would only make $4000-8000 itself. That barely pays for an EA lawyer to get out of bed, let alone draft all the necessary documents just to start something, police it, program a toolkit etc.

I think this point underestimates the amount of new users who would start to use mods if offered through Origin, though.

Many folks don't use mods for the following reasons:

• They think mods are illegal
  
• They think the game publisher frowns on mod use, and would feel guilty about using them
  
• They don't want to mess with a 3rd party host
  
• They aren't tech savvy enough to figure out how to install them properly
• They don't really pay attention, since mods are exterior to the game

Distributing a mod through Origin changes all this:

• Players now have the publisher's "blessing"
• The mod is hosted right on the Origin platform; no third party site necessary
  
• Origin installs the mod for them (correctly, in theory)
  
• EA will promote the mods via Origin, making them more visible

So, yes, I agree that the sales for any individual mod might be small. But, that's basing it on existing ME3 mods and download numbers. If EA started to support mods and modding, like Bethesda does, the modding community would grow exponentially. There would be many more mods than there are now, many more downloads if offered through Origin, and many more dollars to earn. Mod authors will see a minor fraction, though, that's for certain.

I doubt they would make it retroactive, so that is likely moot. Supporting old games would likely not be worth their time, like you said. But, if they do release a CK for Frostbite, I'd almost bet it will come with a mod hosting platform built into Origin.

---

ottemis -- You win the internetz for the day. James Woods as Hades was one of the funniest things ever. I actually love Hercules. Not as much as Hunchback of Notre Dame, but... almost.

[ottemis]

creeperlava  -- Personally I think I'd examine what's in popular demand, or is likely to be and I'd create mods for sale accordingly. I doubt Id sell everything, given the choice. Some select things.
I imagine I'd not release mods the same way I do now, where a lot of my re-textures can be found separately. While I could still offer smaller mods for free, I could create bigger collections and sell those for user convenience. Just spit-balling, but something along those lines perhaps. I haven't been in a situation to seriously consider this and I think it's impossible for me to say with confidence now how I would handle it, without knowing exactly how the system would work. In my book, the idea of creating with intent to sell would mean I make sure the re-textures are pristine. I would pay extra attention to optimization and update a.s.a.p. when needed. You make a different type of commitment when you release content for money.

Also, I wouldn't consider retroactively changing mods I already released for free, to put them up for sale. I imagine I'd step into such a system fresh, with a new game to mod.

I understand why as a mod user, you would be against the concept. I'm broke, I hear you. Still currently your luxury of choice is gained through the altruistic character of modders who now freely share. Modding would change, yes, at least to some degree. Could you consider that, even though you wouldn't be able to mod your game the way you are used to, it may be fairer to modders to have the opportunity of choice there? Obviously it's unfortunate that it might force you to become more selective, but that is a user consideration, not a modder one.

To answer your other question, I'm fully self-taught and have never been employed in this field.
The average retexture (diff/spec/norm) can take me anywhere between a day to several depending on the wrap complexity and the object in question. That's when I have the luxury of continuously working on it till it is completed, and considering my speed now, opposed to when I started out. Some retextures are just harder than others. I have no idea how many hours I have spent in Photoshop and 3DS on modding, what I can say is that Origin shows I have accumulated 3738 hours played in ME3 alone. Subtracting my actual played time from that, I'd guess I'm left with roughly 3600 hours spent purely on testing my textures&mods and using Texmod to extract textures, as that's how I started out doing it prior to using Texplorer (and still sometimes do tbh). I reckon you can imagine that creating those retextures takes considerably more time, so yeah. Time is a precious commodity for anyone and I've spent plenty modding.

giftfish  -- lol. I've been out of touch with my inner Hades for far too long. There was a time I was heavily associated with him on Tumblr too, because I kept using him everywhere.

[giftfish]

ottemis -- Let's not go into the amount of time you spent on Rakhana, or making the most vanilla-centric, awesome Thane retex ever

[ottemis]

Two perfectionists make for an awesome party. Awesome she said. Heh heh heh.

[creeperlava]

Jan 11, 2017 23:49:41 GMT ottemis said:

creeperlava  -- Personally I think I'd examine what's in popular demand, or is likely to be and I'd create mods for sale accordingly. I doubt Id sell everything, given the choice. Some select things.
I imagine I'd not release mods the same way I do now, where a lot of my re-textures can be found separately. While I could still offer smaller mods for free, I could create bigger collections and sell those for user convenience.

That's exactly the problem, money and demand takes over creativity. You start creating things for the audience, not for yourself. That's my biggest issue with paid modding, and what I think would kill large scale modding altogether.

To answer your other question, I'm fully self-taught and have never been employed in this field.

The fact that you achieved your level of skill through self teaching is quite impressive and motivating. Thanks for the detailed answer !

[ottemis]

Jan 12, 2017 8:22:43 GMT creeperlava said:

That's exactly the problem, money and demand takes over creativity. You start creating things for the audience, not for yourself. That's my biggest issue with paid modding, and what I think would kill large scale modding altogether.

I don't create all these Mods for 'myself' anymore, that ship has sailed a LONG time ago my friend. Its more a compulsion now. Worse even, i have never played any game through with my own Mods.

Nowadays i create for the pleasure of creating. For the challenge. Sometimes by request if i'm feeling it. I don't see that changing. You think i don't pay attention to my audience now? That's why I've released so many variations on things for instance. I wouldn't say that killed the creativity, would you?